tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post2677239531462239850..comments2024-03-28T13:38:36.788-04:00Comments on Pharma Marketing Blog: Detrol v. Toviaz: Marketing Replaces Innovation at Pfizer!Vladhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04114063498108633047noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-23888065633012696442015-07-27T09:51:20.210-04:002015-07-27T09:51:20.210-04:00hello folks, just thought I'd weigh in on thi...hello folks, just thought I'd weigh in on this subject, first, I was curious to see if I could find out what the ingredients were that make Toviaz so dang expensive, and googled for it, came up with this website. Next, I am a 56 year old female , with multiple sclerosis, and I took Detrol LA for a year, had constant dry mouth, and limited success. I have been on Toviaz for a year and a half, started with the 4 mg as samples, there was marked improvement, so we tried the 8 mg, and that was a bit high dosage, now,for the last 9 months, back to the 4mg, this medication has changed my life, there are virtually no loss of control episodes. and there are NO side effects or discomfort with the 4mg dosage, while the 8 mg did have some dry mouth, and retention issues. So, as a patient, and as a PERSON, the product is definitely a huge benefit. I am still trying to figure out what ingredients make this product worth almost $700.00 for 30 tablets, but, that is another issue, big pharma, does know how to tilt the tables and squeeze the insurance companies, and my wallet... but this product is in a class of its own as far as efficacy. thanks for reading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-61093670360360248142012-09-10T00:16:30.373-04:002012-09-10T00:16:30.373-04:00My my. In my line of work this is called a pissin...My my. In my line of work this is called a pissing contest (pun intended).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-41263026644149104432012-06-08T22:54:19.051-04:002012-06-08T22:54:19.051-04:00I think that the so called head to head was not re...I think that the so called head to head was not really a H to H because I dont recall reading about a control. From what I can tell in my practice its the same drug as DLA just to get any real benefits you have to push it to the 8 mg and with that you get more side effects. I have better results with Vesicare. i always start with the 5 mg. My biggest issue is the insurance companies forcing me to use oxybutinin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-17087718486736955112011-06-13T20:30:49.384-04:002011-06-13T20:30:49.384-04:00I have used both drugs and they reacted very diffe...I have used both drugs and they reacted very differently. I too am one of those women who has taken Toviaz for two weeks. Who ever invented tweeked it or whatever thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-65397205679219491072011-05-06T09:44:46.412-04:002011-05-06T09:44:46.412-04:00The problem about asking my Dr. is he said the Ves...The problem about asking my Dr. is he said the Vesicare was the same exact thing as Detrol LA because I was worried about taking it. I don't like to take medications. He failed to tell me that some of the side effects were chest pain with Vesicare. So I don't really trust what his opinions are on these meds due to that. Was hoping to get others opinions on if I should take the Toviaz since I was able to take the Detrol LA. Thanks for any input.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-6861192704076042232011-05-06T09:14:19.549-04:002011-05-06T09:14:19.549-04:00Dear Anon: Except for this piece of advice, don...Dear Anon: Except for this piece of advice, don't trust the advice you may get online! Talk to your doctor.PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-90167184652459282152011-05-06T09:09:45.698-04:002011-05-06T09:09:45.698-04:00I have been taking Detrol La for about a year. My ...I have been taking Detrol La for about a year. My insurance refuses to pay for it anymore so my Dr. changed me to Vesicare. The Vesicare within four days of taking it made me have chest pain and I thought I was having a heart attack. I stopped the Vesicare and the Dr. prescribed Toviaz. I am scared to death to take the Toviaz because of what the Vesicare did to me. Can anyone tell me since I was able to take the Detrol LA with no side effects if the Toviaz will do the same as the Detrol. I really need this medication but don't want to be scared to death thinking I am having a heart attack. I am only in my 40's and have been having this issue since I had my children. Really need help deciding to take the Toviaz or not.Thanks for any helpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-26958268900550851832011-03-22T15:15:26.242-04:002011-03-22T15:15:26.242-04:00Thanks for the insight. If Toviaz was developed sp...Thanks for the insight. If Toviaz was developed specifically to allow a higher dosage while limiting adverse events, then that would be a significant difference IF the efficacy was also significantly greater than placebo, which you imply is not the case.PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-6008265351349583412011-03-22T14:18:29.513-04:002011-03-22T14:18:29.513-04:00the change in formulation from Detrol LA to Toviaz...the change in formulation from Detrol LA to Toviaz meant that Pfizer could administer an 8mg dose instead of 4mgs, which was the limit with Detrol LA due to the associated adverse events. For that reason, efficacy of Toviaz is higher than Detrol LA - this is why in the H2H they compared 4mg Detrol with 8mg Toviaz.<br /><br />It isn't about it being a new drug as such, they have just found a way of dosing higher than they could with Detrol. In that sense, you could argue that the drug is justified, but I agree the difference in efficacy is only very slight when you consider placebo groups in OAB trials tend to have anywhere between 30-50% efficacy too based on the psychological impact of keeping diaries and monitoring urine output.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-20159613935180806212010-11-03T20:35:52.188-04:002010-11-03T20:35:52.188-04:00Thank you John Mack for getting the correct inform...Thank you John Mack for getting the correct information out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-19377778561204601752010-09-14T07:51:31.123-04:002010-09-14T07:51:31.123-04:00Anon,
You are correct. There is no generic Detrol...Anon,<br /><br />You are correct. There is no generic Detrol at this time (2010). Detrol's basic patent is set to expire September 2012, and Detrol LA -- the long-acting version of Detrol -- has three patents set to expire between 2012 and 2020. <br /><br />Toviaz is just another way to virtually extend the patent life of Detrol by tweaking the molecule into a new molecular entity. This allows Pfizer to continue to compete with generic Detrol when it becomes available after the patent expires in 2012.PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-7405363505975267042010-09-13T21:04:30.294-04:002010-09-13T21:04:30.294-04:00What $8 generic? I'm paying huge bucks for Det...What $8 generic? I'm paying huge bucks for Detrol and was told there is no generic. I buy my drugs from my drug insurance company.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-85918672932785584382010-06-25T14:44:13.344-04:002010-06-25T14:44:13.344-04:00In a urology practice, how hard would it be to tak...In a urology practice, how hard would it be to take a patient that has been on Detrol for a long time and then try the new drug toviaz and then keep a record of the improvement. The more a urologist or a group would do that they would get beyond anecdotal. <br /><br />The insurance companies and Medicare etc will be looking at that matter I am quite sure so why not get a head start?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-11822991392277200512010-06-14T10:11:37.510-04:002010-06-14T10:11:37.510-04:00I have an 86 year old mom with Alzheimer's dis...I have an 86 year old mom with Alzheimer's disease. She used to take detrol la but when she started aricept, the detrol became less effective. I read an article that said detrol and aricept worked in opposite ways and could, in effect, cancel each other out. I discontinued the detrol but her urinary accidents are worse than ever. Now her doctor is prescribing Toviaz but it seems to have the same properties as detrol. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-20226142966477227432010-03-12T19:07:14.217-05:002010-03-12T19:07:14.217-05:00John, this is Dr. Anonymous. I'm not going to...John, this is Dr. Anonymous. I'm not going to associate my name with such a website or else I’d probably get ran out of town by my patients and colleagues. That being said, you'll have to take my word that I am a practicing Urologist of 19 (20 in June) years. The H2H data is public knowledge so look it up yourself if you want to find it. Furthermore, of course Pfizer sponsored the study. I'm pretty sure the FDA is not going to dip into their cash reserves and give drug companies millions in funds to conduct H2H trials. Have you ever heard of such a thing? I haven’t. <br /><br />For such a smart guy that you tout to be, you of all people should know that the FDA has to rigorously review and monitor every phase of such a study. Drug companies don't have a lot of "wiggle room” to distort data even if that were their intentions. <br /><br />John, in all seriousness, my patients with OAB respond differently to various meds. Toviaz has been great for me. And to answer your question concerning cost, I don't recall anywhere in my previous commentary that I blanketed all my patients as being on Toviaz. In my state, it is preferred on a few of the bigger healthcare plans. We use the co pay cards the drug reps leave us and it is often $10-15 more than a generic. I clearly explain the cost of this med will be more than a generic and I thoroughly explain the pros and cons of each. I put the decision making power in the hands of my patients. If cost is a serious issue, off to CVS or Walgreens you go for the $8 generic.<br /><br />And for the record, once again, I do not get paid by Pfizer, Astellas, J&J, Novartis, or any of the manufacturers that produce bladder meds. You ask for the data? I have real world data everyday that comes into my office. I know what’s going on in Urology. You don’t.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-87648634681720059492010-03-07T04:56:44.631-05:002010-03-07T04:56:44.631-05:00Although changing a single methyl group to a hydro...Although changing a single methyl group to a hydroxyl can mean the difference between a potent compound and one that is totally inactive, John's juxtaposition of the two chemical structures for "SAR"-like analysis is valid.<br /><br />John asked some valid questions that all of the anonymous responders some to be avoiding. Even if Toviaz is "better" than Detrol in terms of safety or efficacy, are either of these two factors improved enough to justify the cost differential between the two drugs. Until a drug has been tested in a substantially large population, any statements about it being safer than existing drugs is mere speculation.Pharma Conduct Guyhttp://blog.pharmaconduct.org/?src=PharmaMarketingBlog+20100307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-62985686491002857142010-03-06T19:50:30.856-05:002010-03-06T19:50:30.856-05:00OK Gentlemen and anonymous, I can help settle this...OK Gentlemen and anonymous, I can help settle this easily. Iam a 49 y/o woman with Multiple Sclerosis. MS causes major loss of bladder control. Believe me I know. I take Detrol XL without much success. I am about to embark on TOVIAZ. I'll let you know MY results. And to all the chemists out there, why can't someone concock a drug similar to codeine but without addictive qualities? Ever take a pain pill? You can go hours without urinating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-76636949725815542002010-03-06T11:33:52.318-05:002010-03-06T11:33:52.318-05:00Manu,
Thanks for that insight. We can all now cla...Manu,<br /><br />Thanks for that insight. We can all now claim vindication! ;-)PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-21099044506913957202010-03-06T09:56:01.316-05:002010-03-06T09:56:01.316-05:00They need to demonstrate that it the new drug'...They need to demonstrate that it the new drug's risk/benefit profile is *at least as good* as existing therapies. It is very difficult to get approval on new drugs. Aspirin would be unlikely to receive approval.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-37144493647767678872010-03-06T09:39:56.266-05:002010-03-06T09:39:56.266-05:00I quick search for fesoterodine and tolterodine on...I quick search for fesoterodine and tolterodine on PubMed pulled up the following article: Comparison of fesoterodine and tolterodine extended release for the treatment of overactive bladder: a head-to-head placebo-controlled trial (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20132103).<br /><br />Not having read the article in full to check for any 'tricks', it would appear that Toviaz is slightly more effective than Detrol XL, but with perhaps slightly more side effects...<br /><br />On this evidence (and there are only 23 articles that come up with these search terms), it would seem that the 'this is better than that' claim can be either true or false, depending on your point of view... ;-)Manuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10668102624745355071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-30215045088451120862010-03-06T09:30:14.862-05:002010-03-06T09:30:14.862-05:00The fact that the FDA approves a drug, does not me...The fact that the FDA approves a drug, does not mean it is MORE effective than other drugs in the category or MORE effective than the generic version of the drug, if one exists. If it's a NME and is at least as effective as other products, FDA is practically REQUIRED to approve it. It cannot disallow approval because there are other drugs on the market UNLESS the new drug has significant side effect issues not seen in existing drugs in its class.PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-91577867687137593702010-03-06T09:03:06.520-05:002010-03-06T09:03:06.520-05:00Pfizer had to convince FDA of that. Its a matter o...Pfizer had to convince FDA of that. Its a matter of public record. Now if you have evidence that it was approved in spite of only nominal differences, please present those. However, your chemical structure argument is bankrupt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-81884676692012320672010-03-06T08:54:41.068-05:002010-03-06T08:54:41.068-05:00Still, no one offers any evidence that I am wrong ...Still, no one offers any evidence that I am wrong about the difference being trivial. These compounds can have "vastly" different properties, but until I see the evidence I cannot take your word for it.<br /><br />I may have an axe to grind re calling this "innovation", but my axe is really aimed at taking pharma at its word that it is innovative, when more and more we see slight modifications to existing drugs to get longer patent protection and maintain higher prices. Maybe TOVIAZ is not the right "poster boy" for this axe-grinding goal, but I think it qualifies.PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-69117220015440197982010-03-06T08:45:20.461-05:002010-03-06T08:45:20.461-05:00You're being dishonest in your analysis here. ...You're being dishonest in your analysis here. There are many compounds with similar structures that have vastly different properties. Ethanol and Methanol come to mind. As a biochemist, you *know* this. However, you decided to be misleading to non-chemists by saying that the differences between the compounds are trivial.<br /><br />It is clear that you have an axe to grind with Pfizer's (Pharma's) marketing strategies. I won't comment on whether your points are right or not on these (as that is not my area of expertise), but let's be a little more honest about the science, shall we?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8550428.post-74603352794422429392010-03-06T07:43:25.019-05:002010-03-06T07:43:25.019-05:00Dear Dr. Anonymous,
So why don't you give me ...Dear Dr. Anonymous,<br /><br />So why don't you give me the reference to that H2H study you quote? Obviously, it was a study paid for by Pfizer. Was it part of the FDA submission for TOVIAZ approval? Am I supposed to take the word of an ANONYMOUS commentator about how much MORE effective TOVIAZ is than DETROL?<br /><br />Tell me doc, when prescribing TOVIAZ over DETROL are you taking the cost differential (brand vs. generic) in mind? Is the "statistical significant" difference you mention worth it? That question cannot be answered until I see the data. Until then, it is YOU NOT ME that is distorting "facts" by first NOT presenting any facts and then supplying only ANECDOTAL evidence!PharmaGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10211557578124130640noreply@blogger.com